Tuesday, March 20, 2012

Losing one's psyche; Hearing a voice; Getting a sign


Below is my raw translation of John 12:20-33. John's gospel is so full of nuance and intertextual references that it is difficult to digest 13 verses at once. My notes are in blue and I would welcome any responses you might have. This text needs a table filled with friends and a pot of coffee.

20. ησαν δὲ Ελληνές τινες ἐκ τῶν ἀναβαινόντων ἵνα προσκυνήσωσιν ἐν τῇ ἑορτῇ:
Yet there were some Greeks out of those who came up in order that they might worship in the festival.
ησαν: IAI 3p, εἰμί, 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
ἀναβαινόντων: PAPart gpm, ἀναβαίνω, 1) ascend  1a) to go up  1b) to rise, mount, be borne up, spring up
προσκυνήσωσιν: AASubj 3p, προσκυνέω, 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence  2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and  touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound  reverence  3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make  obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
1.Re: Greeks, who came to worship in the festival. Are these the so-called ‘god-fearers’ that we meet in Acts? (Cf. Acts: 10: 2, 22, 35; 13:16, 26 [where the operative word is phoboumenosloi] and 13:43, 50; 16:14; 17:4, 17; 18:7 [which have some form of sebomenos]. A lot of speculation has been made over the years that these folks were believers in the Jewish God, but not quite ready to take on the disciplines of Jewish conversion. A.T. Kraabel in “The Disappearance of the God-Fearers” questions the traditional view, positing recent archeological evidence against the ‘historical accounts’ of Acts. He argues that the terms is a literary device for Luke’s telling of the church’s story, rather than a real historical phenomenon. 

21. οὗτοι οὖν προσῆλθον Φιλίππῳ τῷ ἀπὸ Βηθσαϊδὰ τῆς Γαλιλαίας, καὶ ἠρώτων αὐτὸν λέγοντες, Κύριε, θέλομεν τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἰδεῖν.
Then these came to Philip who was from Bethesda of Galilee, and implored him saying, “Lord, we wish to see Jesus.”
προσῆλθον: AAI 3p, προσέρχομαι, 1) to come to, approach  2) draw near to  3) to assent to
ἠρώτων: IAI 3p, ρωτάω, 1) to question  2) to ask  2a) to request, entreat, beg, beseech
λέγοντες: PAPart npm, λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
θέλομεν: PAI 1p, θέλω, 1) to will, have in mind, intend  1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose  1b) to desire, to wish  1c) to love  1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing  1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
ἰδεῖν: AAInf, ὁράω, 1) to see with the eyes  2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know  3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience  4) to see, to look to  4a) to take heed, beware  4b) to care for, pay heed to  5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared
1.The use of “Lord” (Κύριε) as the Greeks’ address to Philip calls into question our modern assumption that “Lord” is an exclusively religious term. The Spanish use of “Señor” is a similar case in point. It can refer as shorthand to Jesus or God; or, it can simply be a term of respect.

22. ἔρχεται ὁ Φίλιππος καὶ λέγει τῷ Ἀνδρέᾳ: ἔρχεται Ἀνδρέας καὶ Φίλιππος καὶ λέγουσιν τῷ Ἰησοῦ.
Philip comes over and speaks to Andrew; Andrew comes and Philip and speak to Jesus.  
ἔρχεται: PMI 3s, ἔρχομαι, 1) to come  1a) of persons  1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of  persons arriving and of those returning
λέγει: PAI 3s, , λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
ἔρχεται: PMI 3s, ἔρχομαι, 1) to come  1a) of persons  1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of  persons arriving and of those returning
λέγουσιν: PAI 3p, λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
1.The Greeks come, Andrew comes, Andrew with Philip come … 
2.I translate the first ἔρχεται as “comes over” to reflect the middle voice, as opposed to a simple active voice. I’m not sure what John signifies by that. 

23. ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς ἀποκρίνεται αὐτοῖς λέγων, Ἐλήλυθεν ἡ ὥρα ἵνα δοξασθῇ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
Yet Jesus responding to them says, “The hour has come in order that the son of man may be glorified.
ἀποκρίνεται: PMI 3s, ἀποκρίνομαι, 1) to give an answer to a question proposed, to answer  2) to begin to speak, but always where something has preceded  (either said or done) to which the remarks refer
λέγων: PAPart, nsm, λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
Ἐλήλυθεν: PerfAI 3s, ἔρχομαι, 1) to come  1a) of persons  1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of  persons arriving and of those returning
δοξασθῇ: APSubj 3s, δοξάζω, 1) to think, suppose, be of opinion  2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate  3) to honor, do honor to, hold in honor  4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendor  4a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent.
1.John uses “son of man” 12x. 1:51, 3:13, 3:14, 5:27, 6:27, 6:53, 6:62, 8:28, 12:23, 12:34 (2x), 13:31. Often, but not exclusively, it is associated with suffering and the cross.

24. ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ἐὰν μὴ ὁ κόκκος τοῦ σίτου πεσὼν εἰς τὴν γῆν ἀποθάνῃ, αὐτὸς μόνος μένει: ἐὰν δὲ ἀποθάνῃ, πολὺν καρπὸν φέρει.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless the grain of wheat that has fallen into the earth would die, it remains alone; but if it would die, it bears much fruit.
λέγω: PAI 1s, λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
πεσὼν: AAPart nsm, πίπτω, 1) to descend from a higher place to a lower  1a) to fall (either from or upon)  1a1) to be thrust down  1b) metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation  2) to descend from an erect to a prostrate position  2a) to fall down
ἀποθάνῃ: AASubj 3s, ἀποθνήσκω  to die out, expire, become quite dead. θνήσκω with ἀπό prefixed, rendering the verb more vivid and intense, and representing the action of the simple verb.
μένει: PAI 3s, μένω, 1) to remain, abide  1a) in reference to place  1a1) to sojourn, tarry  1a2) not to depart  1a2a) to continue to be present  1a2b) to be held, kept, continually  1b) in reference to time  1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure  1b1a) of persons, to survive, live  1c) in reference to state or condition  1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different  2) to wait for, await one
ἀποθάνῃ: AASubj 3s,
φέρει: PAI 3s, φέρω, 1) to carry   1a) to carry some burden   1a1) to bear with one's self   1b) to move by bearing; move or, to be conveyed or borne, with   the suggestion of force or speed   1b1) of persons borne in a ship over the sea   1b2) of a gust of wind, to rush   1b3) of the mind, to be moved inwardly, prompted   1c) to bear up i.e. uphold (keep from falling)   1c1) of Christ, the preserver of the universe
1.In a less literal translation, I would make this, “If a grain of wheat that has fallen into the ground does not die, it remains alone. But, if it does die, it bears much fruit.” ἐὰν and μὴ are literally “if” and “not” taken separately. Together they are a subjunctive way of setting up a negative possibility. Hence, “Unless” (NRSV) or “except” (KJV).

25. ὁ φιλῶν τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἀπολλύει αὐτήν, καὶ ὁ μισῶν τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ τούτῳ εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον φυλάξει αὐτήν.
The one who loves one’s psyche loses it, and the one who hates his psyche in this world into ‘eternal now living’ keeps it.  
φιλῶν: PAPart nsm, φιλέω, 1) to love   1a) to approve of   1b) to like   1c) sanction   1d) to treat affectionately or kindly, to welcome, befriend   2) to show signs of love   2a) to kiss   3) to be fond of doing   3a) be wont, use to do
ἀπολλύει: PAI 3s, ἀπόλλυμι, 1) to destroy  1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin  1b) render useless  1c) to kill  1d) to declare that one must be put to death  1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell  1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed  2) to destroy  2a) to lose
μισῶν: PAPart nsm, μισέω, 1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest  2) to be hated, detested
φυλάξει: PAI 3s, φυλάσσω, 1) to guard   1a) to watch, keep watch   1b) to guard or watch, have an eye upon: lest he escape   1c) to guard a person (or thing) that he may remain safe   1c1) lest he suffer violence, be despoiled, etc. to protect   1c2) to protect one from a person or thing   1c3) to keep from being snatched away, preserve safe   and unimpaired   1c4) to guard from being lost or perishing   1c5) to guard one's self from a thing   1d) to guard i.e. care for, take care not to violate   1d1) to observe   2) to observe for one's self something to escape
1.It is incredibly important to point out that EVERY verb and participle of this verse is in the present tense. There is a parallel pattern here, where loving leads to losing; while hating leads to keeping, but note: losing and keeping are not in the future tense. It’s not ‘love or hate’ now; ‘lose or keep’ later. At least not insofar as the verb tenses go. 
2.The key, then, is the term αἰώνιον, which is typically translated “eternal life.” αἰώνιον has as its root the word αἰών, means most basically “age”, like the transliterated English ‘eon.’ Kittle’s TDNT has pages and pages on αἰών, noting that it is incredibly ambiguous and its translation is quite dependent on context - particularly the question would be whether αἰών points to this-worldly age or next-worldly age. The adjective αἰώνιος can be translated ‘eternal,’ ‘lifelong,’ ‘enduring,’ ‘everlasting,’ ‘ancient,’ or ‘long past,’ or ‘of old.’ In the NT, it is used of God, divine possessions, or with an eschatological sense. 
3.It is important to remember that this is a prepositional phrase: εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον. The εἰς means ‘into’ and takes the accusative as its object. ζωὴν (noun) and αἰώνιον (adjective) together are the object of the preposition, both accusative singular feminine. (I know that the pronoun αὐτήν is also accusative singular feminine, but that corresponds with the singular feminine antecedent, ψυχὴν.) 
4.Young’s Literal Translation (accessible via Bible Gateway and an excellent resource) translates αἰώνιον as “age-during,” which – I think – is very suggestive that the adjectival form of this word means something other than just ‘eternal.’ Of course, I don’t know if John intended ‘eternal’ or ‘life-during’ (whatever that means). I just think that we fall too easily into thinking that everything is mortgaged in this life for the next life. 
5.The other translation issue here is the word ψυχὴν, which I am transliterating as psyche. It is often translated ‘soul,’ (KJV) or ‘life’ (NRSV). But, I worry that ‘soul’ sounds like a ‘religious’ part of our being or an eternal part of our being, such as in the Greek (and not biblical) doctrine of the immortality of the soul. And ‘life’ is problematic here because ζωὴν is typically translated as a ‘life’ word.  "Self" is probably the best choice, but, I’m leaving it a ‘psyche’ so the original term is clearer.

26. ἐὰν ἐμοί τις διακονῇ, ἐμοὶ ἀκολουθείτω, καὶ ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ ἐκεῖ καὶ ὁ διάκονος ὁ ἐμὸς ἔσται: ἐάν τις ἐμοὶ διακονῇ τιμήσει αὐτὸν ὁ πατήρ.
If one would serve me, one must follow me, and where I am, there the servant of mine will be also; if one would serve me, the father will honor that one. 
διακονῇ: PASubj, διακονέω, 1)) to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon  1a) to minister to one, render ministering offices to  1a1) to be served, ministered unto  1b) to wait at a table and offer food and drink to the guests,
ἀκολουθείτω: PAImpv 3s, ἀκολουθέω, 1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant,  accompany him  2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple  2a) side with his party
εἰμὶ: PAI 1s, εἰμί, 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
ἔσται: FMI 3s, εἰμί, 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
διακονῇ: PASubj, διακονέω, 1)) to be a servant, attendant, domestic, to serve, wait upon  1a) to minister to one, render ministering offices to  1a1) to be served, ministered unto  1b) to wait at a table and offer food and drink to the guests,
τιμήσει: FAI 3s, τιμάω, 1) to estimate, fix the value  1a) for the value of something belonging to one's self  2) to honor, to have in honor, to revere, venerate

27. Νῦν ἡ ψυχή μου τετάρακται. καὶ τί εἴπω; Πάτερ, σῶσόν με ἐκ τῆς ὥρας ταύτης; ἀλλὰ διὰ τοῦτο ἦλθον εἰς τὴν ὥραν ταύτην.
Now my psyche is troubled. And what shall I say? “Father, rescue me out of this hour?” But for this reason I came into this hour.  
τετάρακται: PPI 3s, ταράσσω, 1) to agitate, trouble (a thing, by the movement of its parts to and fro)  1a) to cause one inward commotion, take away his calmness of  mind, disturb his equanimity  1b) to disquiet, make restless  1c) to stir up  1d) to trouble  1d1) to strike one's spirit with fear and dread  1e) to render anxious or distressed  1f) to perplex the mind of one by suggesting scruples or doubts
εἴπω: λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
σῶσόν: AAOptative 2s, σῴζω, 1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction  1a) one (from injury or peril)  1a1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one  suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
ἦλθον: AAI 1s, ἔρχομαι, 1) to come  1a) of persons  1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of  persons arriving and of those returning
1. I think this verse and the next ought to have been divided differently. The phrase, “Father, glorify your name” is the obvious retort to “Father, save me from this hour.” So, I think this is another parallel structure that could be something like: What shall I say, “Father save me?” No, I came precisely to say this, “Father glorify your name.” 
2. For “Save me” the verb is in the ‘optative’ mood. It’s fairly rare but signifies a wish or a hope. In the parallel prayer, “Father, glorify your name,” the verb is in the imperative mood. I think that indicates that Jesus’ prayer is not a hope, but a determination that God be glorified. 

28. πάτερ, δόξασόν σου τὸ ὄνομα. ἦλθεν οὖν φωνὴ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, Καὶ ἐδόξασα καὶ πάλιν δοξάσω.
“Father, glorify your name.”  Then a voice came out of the heaven, “Indeed I have glorified and will glorify again.”
δόξασόν: AAImpv 2s, δοξάζω, 1) to think, suppose, be of opinion  2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate  3) to honor, do honor to, hold in honor  4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendor  4a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
ἦλθεν: AAI 3s, ἔρχομαι, 1) to come  1a) of persons  1a1) to come from one place to another, and used both of  persons arriving and of those returning
ἐδόξασα: AAI 1s, δοξάζω, see above
δοξάσω: FAI 1s, δοξάζω, see above
1.The word “glorify” (δοξάζω) picks up on a theme that began in v.23.There, Jesus says the hour has come for the son of man to be glorified. The ongoing paradox of John’s gospel is that this one who is glorified is, at the same time and in this very way, the one who is “lifted up” in death.

29. ὁ οὖν ὄχλος ὁ ἑστὼς καὶ ἀκούσας ἔλεγεν βροντὴν γεγονέναι: ἄλλοι ἔλεγον, Ἄγγελος αὐτῷ λελάληκεν.
Then the crowd who are standing there and heard were saying there has been thunder; others said, “Angels had been speaking to him.” 
ἑστὼς: PAPart nsm, ἵστημι, 1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set  1a) to bid to stand by, [set up]  1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges,  before members of the Sanhedrin;  1a2) to place  1b) to make firm, fix establish
ἀκούσας: AAPart nsm, ἀκούω, 1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf  2) to hear  2b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
ἔλεγεν: λέγω IAI 3s, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
γεγονέναι: PerfAInf, γίνομαι, 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being  2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen  2a) of events  3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage  3a) of men appearing in public  4) to be made, finished  4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought  5) to become, be made
ἔλεγον: λέγω IAI 3p, see above
λελάληκεν: PerfAI 3p, λαλέω, 1) to utter a voice or emit a sound  2) to speak  2a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech  2b) to utter articulate sounds
1. The voice, clear to the narrator and ostensibly clear to Jesus, was not as clear to the crowd. John does not have Jesus hearing “You are my son …” at his baptism.

30. ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν, Οὐ δι' ἐμὲ ἡ φωνὴ αὕτη γέγονεν ἀλλὰ δι' ὑμᾶς.
Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not been for me, but for you. 
ἀπεκρίθη: API 3s, ἀποκρίνομαι, 1) to give an answer to a question proposed, to answer  2) to begin to speak, but always where something has preceded  (either said or done) to which the remarks refer
εἶπεν: AAI 3s, λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
γέγονεν: PerfAI 3s, γίνομαι, 1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being  2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen  2a) of events  3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage  3a) of men appearing in public  4) to be made, finished  4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought  5) to become, be made

31. νῦν κρίσις ἐστὶν τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, νῦν ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου ἐκβληθήσεται ἔξω:
Now judgment is of this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
ἐστὶν: PAI 3s, εἰμί, 1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
ἐκβληθήσεται: FPI 3s, ἐκβάλλω, 1) to cast out, drive out, to send out  1a) with notion of violence  1a1) to drive out (cast out)  1a2) to cast out  1a2a) of the world, i.e. be deprived of the power and  influence he exercises in the world  1a2b) a thing: excrement from the belly into the sink  1a3) to expel a person from a society: to banish from a family  1a4) to compel one to depart; to bid one depart, in stern  though not violent language
1. There is an insistence on ‘now.’ Now is judgment; and now … the ruler of this world “will be” cast out. But, the second now has a curious future tense tied to it. 
2. The “ruler of this world”? At the last supper, Jesus says to his disciples, “I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father.” (14:30-31). And later, about the paraclete, Jesus says, “he will prove the world wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because they do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will see me no longer; about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been condemned.” 

32. κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν.
And I if I would be lifted up out of the earth, I will draw all to me.  
ὑψωθῶ: APS 1s, ὑψόω, 1) to lift up on high, to exalt  2) metaph.  2a) to raise to the very summit of opulence and prosperity  2b) to exalt, to raise to dignity, honour and happiness
ἑλκύσω: FAI 1s, ἑλκύω 1. unsheath, a person forcibly and against his will, drag, drag off, 2. metaph. to draw by inward power, lead, impel:
1. The language of Jesus being “lifted up” is part of the’ conversation with Nicodemus (Jn 3:14), Also in 8:28 Jesus says to ‘the Jews,’ “When you have lifted up the son of man, then you will realize that I am he” 

33. τοῦτο δὲ ἔλεγεν σημαίνων ποίῳ θανάτῳ ἤμελλεν ἀποθνῄσκειν.
Yet he was saying this signifying what kind of death he was about to die.
ἔλεγεν: IAI 3s, λέγω, 1) to say, to speak  1a) affirm over, maintain  1b) to teach  1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct  1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say  1e) to call by name, to call, name  1f) to speak out, speak of, mention
σημαίνων: PAPart nsm, σημαίνω, 1) to give a sign, to signify, indicate  2) to make known
ἤμελλεν: IAI 3s, μέλλω, 1) to be about  1a) to be on the point of doing or suffering something  1b) to intend, have in mind, think to
ἀποθνῄσκειν: PAInf, ἀποθνήσκω  to die out, expire, become quite dead. θνήσκω with ἀπό prefixed, rendering the verb more vivid and intense, and representing the action of the simple verb.
1.“What kind of death” seems to be pointing to the cross, since Jesus being “lifted up” had already been likened to Moses lifting up the bronze serpent in the wilderness (c.3). 
2.The present active participle “signifying” is intriguing, since one distinctive feature of John’s gospel is his use of the word “sign” instead of “miracle.” Here, it is not a miraculous act, but words, that signify. 

9 comments:

Sam Heatwole said...

Mark here are a few thoughts:

Vs. 22- “comes over and speaks to…”- perhaps refers to Phillip and Andrew conferring prior to speaking to Jesus about whether to allow the Greeks access to Jesus, or perhaps John just wants to note specifically to whom Jesus spoke the remaining verses in the passage?

Vs 23- “son of man” aren’t all humans (sons and daughters of man) , through Jesus’ sacrifice “glorified?”

Vs. 24- “fallen INTO the earth” i.e., buried…those on top of the earth, i.e. “alone” die. Through being buried, i.e. dead it ( we) is transformed and becomes alive, i.e. “bears much fruit.”

Vs. 25- My understanding is that if we live our lives with our psyches focused on this world, our lives will end with our human deaths. If, however, we focus our psyches on the promise of eternal life…if we believe…we “will not die, but have everlasting life.”

Vs. 26- speaks for itself…Jesus is THE example of denying one’s earth- focused psyche.

Agree 27- 28

No comment 29-30

Vs. 31 – “ruler of the world”??? Isn’t this a reference to the Roman Empire? Your second comment here would seem to indicate this. The Roman Empire was, indeed, “cast out” eventually…as has been and will be all earthly power.

Vs. 32 – reference to conquering death.

Vs. 33- Perhaps the last verse may have been added in translation by an overzealous monk who saw the irony????

Mark said...

Sam, Sam, Sam, Thanks for the thoughts. Please let me offer some quick reactions.

v.22, either option you offer seems really plausible. Re: option 1 -I wonder if Philip were really shy, or if he were intimidated by Jesus, or wondered if taking this request to Jesus would be okay.
Re: option 2 - John mentions the crowd later, so I'm not sure when they got involved along the way.

v. 23, I like the extension of the singular son of man to all of humanity. v.28 links Jesus' glorification to God's name being glorified. Lotta glory going on!

v.25 - I'm just not sure if by 'eternal life' John/Jesus intend for us to think 'the life after death.' Martin Heidegger spoke of the predicament of 'having to die' that drives humanity to its worst habits. If the promise of eternal life is what breaks that driving force, we can actually live now. That's kind of how I'm hearing it in John's gospel.

v.31 I do think the Empire is in mind here. 'There's a revolution going on' might be the background music here.

Thanks again for the comments.

Sam Heatwole said...

Don't know why that sent 3 times...uh...could have been the hiccups ????
Anyway, vs.25...Yes, I get the message...that the kingdom of God is now...on earth. Which means that we must be engaged in God's work here and now...the thing that this verse points out is that what we do on earth should be according to the will of God as far as humanly possible. The difficulty we humans have is that some folks worship other gods...money, fame, themselves, cooking channels, (how did that sneak in there?) and the list con-tinnnnnn-uuuuuuuuuuueeeeesss. Thus when their earthly lives end, that's it. All those THINGS pass away... all those accomplishments are earthly...to work in the world as Jesus teaches with unselfish love as the framework for whatever you do is to attain eternal life. When you die in Christ, your accomplishments in his name live on.

Mark said...

Sam my Friend,
I deleted your duplicated comments from earlier. No sense in making it appear that more than one person actually reads this blog!
I agree entirely with your last comment, although I've never watched the cooking channels, so I can't speak to whether they are evil or good or part of the adiaphora.
Good to hear from you.

Frances said...

Thanks for your work on this - most interesting. I'm trying to work on my sermon which was to have been based on "Sir we would see Jesus" (a rare concession to the KJB) however those Greeks seem to have slipped out of my grasp a bit. As you say, so much in there and far more fun to gather around a pot of coffee and all contribute than to stand up and hold forth to the rows. Thankfully a small church and an infrequent task for me.
So much "through the glass darkly"!
Regards
Frances NZ

Mark said...

Well, Frances,
After sitting over coffee with some fine interlocutors this morning, my head is raw from scratching it over this text.
Maybe preaching it will be a little easier, because I'll necessarily have to zero in on one part, rather than trying to account for the whole.

Christina Berry said...

Mark, I'm still back on those opening verses. What is going on here? These people come to "see Jesus" and he launches into this discourse about how the hour has come. Let's assume for a minute that he said hello or something; they came to see Jesus -- what were they looking for, I wonder, and what did Jesus see that made him say all this?

Mark said...

Christina,

We talked about this quite a bit at our breakfast bible group this week. I really and truly wonder if the Greek identity is pivotal here. Not having consulted anyone informed on the matter yet, let me just share where my mind is.
Greek philosophy invests to much in the "immortality of the soul" doctrine, which seems like but is not like the NT doctrine of the resurrection of the body. The attention to the soul led to many forms of thinking, one of which was the kind of docetic view of matter (including the body) as evil.
I just wonder if the use of 'psyche,' (which the NRSV TERRIBLY translates as 'life' in v.25 and 'soul' in v.27 (??), is John's way of addressing some version of Greek philosophy.
Is there a reason why John has Jesus arguing that the body must die, but that there is a redemptive purpose to it, and not just that the body is part of corruptible matter? Is there a reason that loving one's psyche can be a problem - usually it's the love of material things that we find problematic. Is there a reason why Jesus' own psyche is troubled - far different from Socrates and his reasonable ability to calmly speak of his forthcoming execution?
I wonder if John is not carrying out a polemic against some Greek ideas, the adherents of which may be attracted to Jesus, but who need to be transformed from their way of thinking the difference between the psyche and the soma, in order to grasp the Word that became flesh.
- I'm wondering this about numerous places in John, not just this pericope, beginning with 1:14.
But then, I'm way speculating.

Mark said...

I need to proof read. In paragraph 2, "to much" was supposed to be "so much."

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I have the joyous privilege of serving as the pastor of Heartland Presbyterian Church in Clive, IA. Heartland is a Christ-centered community called to provide creative and inclusive opportunities for worship, spiritual growth, and service. Find out more at www.heartlandpresbyterian.org

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